xmenfirstkink | Mod Post: So let's talk about this ableism thing.

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Mod Post: So let's talk about this ableism thing.

Disclaimer: After writing this, I sent it to the other mods and some friends of mine to check to make sure it didn't say anything problematic, but if they or I missed something important or said something wrong, please don't hesitate to let me know. I'm still learning.

Something's been brought to our attention in regards to language people have been using re: disability, and problematic depictions thereof. It's great that we have a character in this fandom who is disabled, and it's great that there is a lot of interest in writing about him! But there are people on this meme who are also disabled, and insensitive or simply ignorant words can really hurt them. As our goal with this meme is to maintain a space where everyone present can feel comfortable participating, we'd like to keep this from happening, and we hope you feel the same way.

You may have noticed that "ableism" has been added to the list of triggers to warn for. If you're not familiar with the word, it refers to any speech, action, or treatment that hurts, oppresses, or discriminates against disabled people. Words like "cripple" and "gimp" fall into this category. Prompts using these words (with a few exceptions, noted below) will be deleted. So do stories that depict Charles' disability as disgusting or unacceptable, or erase it completely. Language like “the crippled man”, “the disabled man”, and “the handicapped man” focuses on his disability, perpetuating the common mindset that disabled people are only disabled, and never have any other defining traits.

Now, we're not going to ask you to stop writing these stories, because this is a kink meme and it is not our business what you choose to ask for or write about. But we do ask that you warn for it, if you think your prompt or fill contains it. Wanting stories about Charles and Erik having acrobatic post-movie sex does not make you a bad person, but that doesn't really matter to someone with a disability who reads it and is hurt by that erasure. Taking the time to consider if your content could hurt someone is just the considerate thing to do.

Likewise, it’s entirely possible to write about ableism without taking part in it yourself -- for instance, depicting Charles dealing with being visibly different for the first time and showing the ways people treat him. Unless they are part of the prompt (“someone calls Charles a “cripple”, cue him defending himself/the team defending him”), ableist slurs are unnecessary; comments in which the prompter casually uses them to refer to a character are unacceptable. But no matter how you write about it, any ableist content needs a warning.

The mods will treat this as any other warning issue: if we see ableist language or actions in your fill or prompt (or it's called to our attention by someone else) and there is no warning, we will ask you to post it again with that warning and delete the offending prompt or fill. We'd rather not do this, so please just be aware of what you're writing so that we can all enjoy this meme.

Please also be aware that we are not perfect; if you find unwarned-for ableist content that we haven’t caught, please feel free to contact the poster or us about it.

So to clarify: I am asking you to either change your wordings or warn for your content. Not because of politics or what bothers you, but because this is a space for everyone to enjoy their kinks and it's courteous to let people know that you've written content that might upset them.

And appended: took "crazy" out of the post because it's not that relevant to the discussion and I was informed that lumping mental and physical disabilities together was a bit insensitive, which, yes, I see now. I am leaving the computer for a while; if I don't get to replying to you in a timely fashion, that's why.

One more edit. Someone suggested having a "choose not to warn" option. Is this something people can agree on/ are interested in? It's not ideal but it seems like a good compromise so that we can all get back to the meme.

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No, they just said that they will be deleting stories in which Charles doesn't end in a wheelchair - see the "or erase [his disability] completely" part. Classy. Really classy.

Settle down, Angry McAngerson.

"This is a kink meme. You can request whatever you want and I will not police that. What I am asking is that you think about if the wording your prompt could hurt someone."

http://xmen-firstkink.livejournal.com/2029.html?thread=752109#t752109

"I'm not here to say what people can and cannot request or write. All I can do is ask that people use warnings so that readers who don't want to read stories like that can skip over them."

http://xmen-firstkink.livejournal.com/2029.html?thread=756461#t756461

"what I'm asking is that you make the best call you can and then be open to add warnings at the request of others. Asking people to be right all the time would actually be ridiculous, and I'm sorry if I made it seem like that was what was going on. "

http://xmen-firstkink.livejournal.com/2029.html?thread=795629#t795629

"This kink meme is not a safe space. I am merely asking people to be courteous"

http://xmen-firstkink.livejournal.com/2029.html?thread=757997#t757997

No one is forbidding anything.

I repeat, NO ONE IS FORBIDDING ANYTHING.

You are being asked to make an attempt to leave a warning if your prompt contains content that you think might be hurtful. Further, you're not being asked to warn for every possible piece of hurtful content. If you don't feel like warning, be prepared to deal with the possibility of people who were triggered or otherwise hurt confronting you about it. This is all that the mod is asking.

Now let's return to our regularly scheduled porngramming.

So, I somehow misunderstood the part where the mod clearly said that prompts that erase Charles' disability will be deleted? Erase, as in AU where he doesn't end up in a wheelchair?

"You may have noticed that "ableism" has been added to the list of triggers to warn for. If you're not familiar with the word, it refers to any speech, action, or treatment that hurts, oppresses, or discriminates against disabled people. Words like "cripple" and "gimp" fall into this category. Prompts using these words (with a few exceptions, noted below) will be deleted. So do stories that depict Charles' disability as disgusting or unacceptable, or erase it completely. Language like “the crippled man”, “the disabled man”, and “the handicapped man” focuses on his disability, perpetuating the common mindset that disabled people are only disabled, and never have any other defining traits."

Ya betcha I'm angry when I'm automatically labeled an ableist just because I love AUs where Charles doesn't end up paralyzed.

I got the impression that prompts and fills containing ableist content would only be deleted if they don't warn and no warning is appended in the event someone complains that they were hurt or triggered by it (and subsequently complains to a mod). So if you're requesting or writing an AU where Charles was never paralyzed, just add a note in the subject line or at the beginning of your comment being like 'guys, just a heads up, in this prompt/fic Charles can walk' sort of the same way you'd be like 'just a warning, there's non-con in this fic.'

Oh, so this is all about you.

I'm pretty sure that's only if you don't include warnings. It's just giving you examples of what to warn for.

This makes sense to me, and helps clarify the one sentence in the mods' post that I had found problematic. Thank you!

This is about me and every author whom this comm labels an ableist because they wish something horrifying hadn't happened to their favorite character. This is about me and every author who write stories where Charles can walk and who are lumped together in the same sack as people who call others cripples and other rude words, who belittle disabled people and do it with gusto. And yes, just as others say they are hurt by these stories, I'm hurt by their unfair accusations. Welcome to the fact that these things go both ways.

ayrt

lol, things go both ways? Are you seriously saying someone calling your actions ableist (not that I agree that's what's happening here btw, and no one is calling little poor you ableist) is the same thing as facing ableism?

Sorry, no, ableism isn't just using slurs and obviously belittling disabled; just like every -ism, there can be more subtle and unconscious ways to be ableist. So stop with your persecution complex and get some fucking perspective.

I have a persecution complex, huh? Thank you for telling me. So, when I'm not an ableist, I need to "get a fucking perpective" because I don't agree with your opinion. Right. And, of course, to be falsely accused of something can't hurt anyone. Thank you for clearing that up for me. Obviously, you have never been on the other side of the fence.

My whole point was that just as authors should be careful of hurting their readers, their readers should be careful with their accusations. This is a two-way street.

Hi,
So I've just read this post and the ensuing comments and I was wondering if we can just get some clarification? It just seems like the mods are saying they will delete post that don't warn about "ableism" yet ableism has not been clearly defined and understood (at least objectively) by the mods. Its confusing because, as the mod have stated, people don't recognize when their being offensive and simply having someone say its offensive is obviously not enough as this is a kink meme and virtually everything can be offensive. My deal is just that if my fic does not have Charles in a wheelchair I think it can be assumed that its alternate universe or takes place before the Divorce, or at very least my labeling it as AU is a sufficient enough warning. I mean this is kind of like if I as a women were offended by Charles/Erik shippers because he needs to be with Moira or if someone made Angel a white male instead of a black female. I think seeing slash, AU, or male!Angel are sufficient warnings in all cases (even if AU is the only warning I get for male!Angel). While I do understand your point in that ableism is something people should be made aware of, I think a kink meme is not the place because fiction is meant to be controversial and kink fiction even moreso. The word "crippled" is still used by prominent authors today to describe the disabled and seeing as X-men: First Class takes place in 1960s where P.C. wasn't even an idea I would not be surprised to see it used casually in a fic. Of course fics where there is blatant hatred/mistreatment towards a disabled person should have warnings, but if they don't I would simply exit out of them and not read them.

I got a little off-track above. My point was that I would appreciate the mods clearly stating what they want and who will be policing because I would really not want a post of mines deleted. I also think the whole post should be rewritten simply because it is very confusing as is and sounds like the mods want to delete all the fics they deem offensive (even with the add-ons and edits). Yes, I do see that they have edited to an extent but its only really caused confusion and it would be better if they just re-wrote it clearly so people understand what exactly is not allowed and so forth.

Also, I think not allowing unlabeled fics that have Charles walking is clearly censorship because a part of writing and reading anything is taking note of what the author thinks is normal, what he/she thinks is a good plot line, and what he/she thinks her/his audience she be warned of. I think that people who are offended should feel free to comment on it (in a polite manner) or exit out. I don't think it is the author's responsibility to warn for it because the action of warning is in a way censoring, i.e. you really can't warn for offensive descriptions of ableism and not think twice about including it at all, or about the fact that by labeling they are making a point (i.e. by labeling my use of the word "cripple" as offensive I am sending the message that I find all use of the word offensive even if I really don't). This might be the point, to get people thinking about ableism, but that is still placing limitations on people and even coercing them to a point of view. That point of view may or may not be the right one but the thing about free will/speech/thought is that it can go either way.

Not a mod, obviously, but I think a good rule of thumb is to simply think about whether your prompt/fill has language and/or themes that could be found offensive and think about what warnings you want to apply to it. Granted, yes, it's hard to warn for every possibly offensive thing (because, you're right, it's a kinkmeme, and there's always going to be something that someone could find upsetting or offensive or objectionable), and you can't always predict what will or won't be objectionable to other people. But it doesn't seem to me like the mods are going to indiscriminately delete every prompt or fic that has the word "cripple" in it or depicts Charles as uninjured post-movie - rather, it sounds like they're asking simply that we take some care with our warnings and accept that they may ask us to modify our warnings if they come across something they deem unacceptable.

I understand your concern about policing and censorship, but the thing is that, for some people, reading something offensive is not as simple as "exiting out" and leaving it at that (oh lord, would the internet be a simpler place if it were!). For some, it's not the same as "I don't like slash" or "het really isn't my thing" or even "I'm squicked by noncon," and scrolling past, but that reading a prompt calling Charles a "cripple" or the like can significantly affect the fandom experience. Of course, that's not the case for everyone, and not even the case for all who have a personal connection to Charles's disability. But that's why the mods are not telling anyone what to write or not to write in their prompts/fics, but instead asking that we give a warning for language and themes that might be hurtful to others, just as we would for themes of rape and violence and incest and underage and the like. You're right that there is really no clear cut sense of what is and isn't offensive, and no one should be forced to take a stand on something that they don't agree with, but using a warning along the lines of "may contain objectionable/offensive language" serves well, I think, to cover your bases if you think someone could take offense.

I think the "choose not to warn" idea is a very good compromise, and one that seems to work well in fandom in general - this way, no one is forced to use warnings that they don't agree with or feel could spoil the plot of a story, and those who know themselves to be sensitive to specific themes and language can consider whether to read or not.

I agree that this post is a little clunkily written, but I do appreciate that the mods are open to discussion on this and amending rules as they go. Nothing in fandom is ever perfect, things are always changing and evolving as time goes on, and I think the most important point here is to try and reach a compromise that benefits everyone, that allows everyone to have the best possible experience here. So really, the most important thing here is to just think about how your words might affect someone else and think about the most appropriate warning you can give to others, even if it's "I'm choosing not to warn."

I have to say, thank you for the clarification, and kudos to you guys for taking note of this issue! It's nice to see how smoothly you guys are running this community and dealing with issues head-on. :D

Also, off topic, but a query (I totally understand if you delete this post, by the way)in regards to wip's.

There is an inceptionwip account on twitter, keeping track of all wip's, and it's done a marvelous job. Would anyone be interested in something similar for first class? I know it's hard sometimes keeping track of prompts that are wip's on the kink meme, and there's some pretty darn good stuff here.

It's not forbidden. It just has to be warned for. You can write whatever you want to, I can't and won't stop you. However if you don't warn for it and don't add warnings when/if you're asked to, that's when we'll delete your post.

As I said in the post you just replied to, I am asking you to either change your wordings or warn for your content.

To be fair, I think some people who operate in an AU where Charles was never injured/isn't disabled aren't necessarily doing so because they want to erase his disability or avoid doing research. I've done a lot of research on disability, SCI and sex, but I would still be quite nervous about writing a fic that attempted to realistically depict his experience after his injury. Not least because I, lacking any personal experience in the area, would be concerned about depicting something that is inaccurate or inadvertently disrespectful. According to the research I've conducted, sex after spinal cord injury is highly variable and not particularly well understood by the scientific community (which is only just beginning to unravel the mysteries of the nervous system), and the literature on the subject is quite limited. The sources differ wildly on whether or not someone with an injury like his could achieve an erection, ejaculate or orgasm. I have yet to find any solid general consensus regarding any of these matters. And while I like fic that deals with his situation realistically, I don't know how comfortable I would feel writing it myself for that reason.

I understand the thing about not wanting to use language like "cripple" etc to define the character, and why that may be seen as offensive to some people who are paralyzed.

However.

You're talking about how some people are taking offense to seeing Charles out of the wheelchair, which is blowing my mind. First off, it's a contradiction -- if he's not defined by his paralysis (which appears to be a point you're trying to make, that the language of "cripple" and other words shouldn't define the person), then it shouldn't be a huge deal to have an AU where he can walk.

Second -- you do realize that in the comics right now, Charles is out of the wheelchair and can walk? So telling people to -warn- for that sort of thing is pretty ridiculous when it occurs in the actual Marvel story lines.

I can never understand the idea that having to warn is censorship. I'm a writer too, and I just don't understand it. Do you think warning for ableism is censorship, or is it all other warnings too?

You can still write what you want, you just need to write a one line warning for it. I don't even begin to see how writing a warning is coercing the writer into a point of view. Having to write a warning is just being aware that this might trigger someone, or it could be a touchy subject. If a person wants to participate in a community without having awareness at all, then they might want to reconsider what community participation actually involves.

The warning system is not going to be 100% perfect, but nothing in fandom is bulletproof. Not everyone is going to get it right. But to pull out the censorship card here, I think that's stretching the definition of censorship.

It's Marvel. Give it some time and he'll be back in the wheelchair again.

Okay, but talking about this seriously, you should consider that this is a kinkmeme surrounding the movie and a number of people are going to come in expecting stories about the movie or post-movie or pre-movie. The comics aren't the canon here.

As to your first point, I believe the problem is erasure of a disability. He's not defined by his paralysis, but it's still part of who he is. It's not a big deal if someone wants an AU, but just label it as such; that it's an AU where he can walk. Tbh, this subject isn't a touchy one to me, but I do find it irritating because I go into a fic expecting something and I get something else altogether. I've been thrown a few times by fics written for post-movie prompts or with a post-movie setting, that don't mention anything about it being an AU, but suddenly he was never paralyzed.

Hey everyone.

Just wanted to leave a quick comment to let the people who are still following the discussion know that we've been talking about this further and an update will follow soon.

^ I've been annoyed by the same thing. Likewise, this isn't a touchy subject for me. It just irritates me that I'm at this point where I start reading a post-movie fic and I have no idea if Charles is supposed to be in a wheelchair or not until the author offhandedly writes a moment where Charles is walking about.

I don't mind if people write stories about Charles out of the wheelchair post-movie. I do mind when people forget to label those stories as AUs because they are and I'd like to know what I'm reading.

FINALLY THANK YOU MOD.

This passage confused me:

"Words like "cripple" and "gimp" fall into this category. Prompts using these words (with a few exceptions, noted below) will be deleted. So do stories that depict Charles' disability as disgusting or unacceptable, or erase it completely."

It seemed to be in direct contradiction to the line you added, because it makes it sound like erasure and more blatant ew-disability-ableism are going to be deleted along with prompts using slurs, long before warnings are mentioned. Putting the third sentence before the other two, in the general discussion of what is ableist and before deletion comes up might make the policy more clear.

Only might, though. From the comments here, sounds like the erasure is more harmful in its broad patterns than individual easy happy AUs. Are all AU non-paralysis fics supposed to warn for erasure? I'm not being flippant and this is not a rhetorical question; most discrimination does its worst damage in terms of broad patterns. The fandom at large would likely react poorly to an entire favorite genre of fic being labeled ableist, but the fact that erasure dominates beloved tropes and disability is something that requires fixit-fic is a large part of the problem.

I'm not bashing or trying to demand a specific policy. I honestly don't know what would work best, and I applaud you guys for trying to deal with this thoughtfully and taking feedback. Just telling you what I found most confusing about the policy as it is now.

You cannot genuinely be this dense.

Hi, I'm the original poster for this comment. Thank you for your reply and I do see your point. I think its just hard for me to get around the idea considering how they phrased it but you are right a "choose" card may be the best solution.

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