Mod Post: So let's talk about this ableism thing.

[iambickilometer.livejournal.com]

Disclaimer: After writing this, I sent it to the other mods and some friends of mine to check to make sure it didn't say anything problematic, but if they or I missed something important or said something wrong, please don't hesitate to let me know. I'm still learning.

Something's been brought to our attention in regards to language people have been using re: disability, and problematic depictions thereof. It's great that we have a character in this fandom who is disabled, and it's great that there is a lot of interest in writing about him! But there are people on this meme who are also disabled, and insensitive or simply ignorant words can really hurt them. As our goal with this meme is to maintain a space where everyone present can feel comfortable participating, we'd like to keep this from happening, and we hope you feel the same way.

You may have noticed that "ableism" has been added to the list of triggers to warn for. If you're not familiar with the word, it refers to any speech, action, or treatment that hurts, oppresses, or discriminates against disabled people. Words like "cripple" and "gimp" fall into this category. Prompts using these words (with a few exceptions, noted below) will be deleted. So do stories that depict Charles' disability as disgusting or unacceptable, or erase it completely. Language like “the crippled man”, “the disabled man”, and “the handicapped man” focuses on his disability, perpetuating the common mindset that disabled people are only disabled, and never have any other defining traits.

Now, we're not going to ask you to stop writing these stories, because this is a kink meme and it is not our business what you choose to ask for or write about. But we do ask that you warn for it, if you think your prompt or fill contains it. Wanting stories about Charles and Erik having acrobatic post-movie sex does not make you a bad person, but that doesn't really matter to someone with a disability who reads it and is hurt by that erasure. Taking the time to consider if your content could hurt someone is just the considerate thing to do.

Likewise, it’s entirely possible to write about ableism without taking part in it yourself -- for instance, depicting Charles dealing with being visibly different for the first time and showing the ways people treat him. Unless they are part of the prompt (“someone calls Charles a “cripple”, cue him defending himself/the team defending him”), ableist slurs are unnecessary; comments in which the prompter casually uses them to refer to a character are unacceptable. But no matter how you write about it, any ableist content needs a warning.

The mods will treat this as any other warning issue: if we see ableist language or actions in your fill or prompt (or it's called to our attention by someone else) and there is no warning, we will ask you to post it again with that warning and delete the offending prompt or fill. We'd rather not do this, so please just be aware of what you're writing so that we can all enjoy this meme.

Please also be aware that we are not perfect; if you find unwarned-for ableist content that we haven’t caught, please feel free to contact the poster or us about it.

So to clarify: I am asking you to either change your wordings or warn for your content. Not because of politics or what bothers you, but because this is a space for everyone to enjoy their kinks and it's courteous to let people know that you've written content that might upset them.

And appended: took "crazy" out of the post because it's not that relevant to the discussion and I was informed that lumping mental and physical disabilities together was a bit insensitive, which, yes, I see now. I am leaving the computer for a while; if I don't get to replying to you in a timely fashion, that's why.

One more edit. Someone suggested having a "choose not to warn" option. Is this something people can agree on/ are interested in? It's not ideal but it seems like a good compromise so that we can all get back to the meme. 

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

What if you don't consider "crippled" an ableist descriptor?

[(Anonymous)]

And "crazy"? Seriously? :/ That's hardly an agreed-upon "slur" in the academic world of ableist thought, let alone among us crazy people ourselves.

[(Anonymous)]

Seriously. Maybe I just don't love being mentally ill enough, but as far as I'm concerned, being crazy is bad and it's bad that I'm crazy, and it's quite okay if you want to use the word crazy to describe something bad.

[(Anonymous)]

well, it's not good that i'm "crazy," and it's not bad, either. it is what it is. i just wish people wouldn't use the word crazy to describe things that are bad (or things that are awesome-- i.e. "that was a crazy stunt you did there!" because being "crazy," while not being bad, isn't fun)

so, i'm glad that it doesn't bother you: more power to you. but it does have a terrible history behind it of stigmatizing the mentally ill and making them subhuman.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes but there are many, many, many, MANY words that individuals find offensive that most other people do not ("lame," "dumb," "hysterical," "cunt," etc). The list is endless, endless. Is a kink meme mod really the one who should be regulating language use and forbidding ANY word that ANY one person finds offensive or problematic? Because that will be like 75% of the words in the English language.

It's really my opinion that there cannot be a safe space for kink and a safe place for everything else at the same time. In a kink meme, id-based linguistic expression and id-based fantasy should trump all, and I'm very disappointed and worried about what this first step into social-justice restriction means.

And it's not as simple as "just warn." It's impossible to warn for something you, or any reasonable person, never thought could be offensive, and the idea that mods will be deleting anything they see fit and requiring a warning at ANY complaint just makes this an environment where you have to watch every word, every theme, every possible implication of your porn at every moment. It's exhausting and anemic and kills enthusiasm dead, I've seen it time and again.

I really wish there were a default "CHOOSE NOT TO WARN FOR POSSIBLE OFFENSIVENESS" option in every comment header, so that those who are concerned about being offended might only read SPECIFIC headers written by people who ARE fine with watching every word/theme/possible implication of their porn and subsequently put that work into it. Most of us do not.

[(Anonymous)]

You're not being policed. You're being asked to make a warning, something that will take approximately five seconds out of your busy schedule, and you're being educated on rudimentary topics, like how it's rude to call someone who's disabled a cripple.

I am sorry you don't have the option of asking everyone to just quietly ignore your privilege.

[(Anonymous)]

Except it takes far more than five seconds of my busy schedule to consider whether my fic contains any of a long list of increasingly unobjectionable (from my point of view) words that I'm nevertheless told not to use because they might possibly offend someone somewhere.

There comes a point where overpolicing stifles creativity and discourages activity for fear of slipping a single word and becoming the centre of an exhausting argument when all you wanted was to write some light fiction as a hobby.

And by single word I don't mean a slur, which I'd hope none of us use casually anyway, but something like "crazy". Which isn't even used negatively all the time. Crazy awesome, anyone?

[(Anonymous)]

lol, how is having fills deleted that are "thematically unacceptable" NOT the definition of being policed?

Also, fuck you for your condescension and ignorant assumptions. "Privilege," indeed -- I guess I should have been waiting for that favorite word-of-the-month. Go to hell, I'm disabled myself. A CRIPPLE, in fact, if you need to know the specifics.

I swear to God, you social-justice crusaders ruin every fucking thing you touch. I can't go anywhere on lj anymore or raise any concerns without being told I'm ignorant and privileged in an attempt to silence me out of the gate. Then I have to show my oppression credentials in order to be listened to, in the one place where it shouldn't have to dog me at every turn.

I'm tired of being bullied and having every space on livejournal dominated by personal offense apparently trumping all.

This issue is NOT as simple as just warning for words! Even the words themselves aren't all agreed upon. What part of that don't you understand, and why do you feel the need to pigeonhole anyone who disagrees with you into an Evil Privileged Ass or a Self-Hating Minority and try to bully them into silence?

[(Anonymous)]

Seconded so hard. So fucking hard. Thank you.

[(Anonymous)]

I think I love you a bit for this comment.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm sorry. I was out of line, and I agree with a lot of what you say. But I also think that the mods need to have the rights, to some degree, to watch what's posted, and that material that could be seen as hurtful should be labelled as such so that people with triggering issues can avoid it. I've gotten a warning for material that I did not consider offensive (with, I might add, the touchy material visibly requested as the prompt) on a kink meme, and I definitely wasn't happy with it, but I kind of figure you do what you can.

[americanaviator.livejournal.com]

Anon, you deserve a beer, a sandwich and a blowjob, all at once.
Whenever you want.
From someone hot.

I love you c: ♥

[iambickilometer.livejournal.com]

Which is why what I'm asking is that you make the best call you can and then be open to add warnings at the request of others. Asking people to be right all the time would actually be ridiculous, and I'm sorry if I made it seem like that was what was going on.

However, because I am more interested in keeping the meme running smoothly than arguing a point, and I agree that this meme has a priority toward kink, I am taking your suggestion of "choose not to warn" and asking what other people think. It seems like a good compromise, providing people are willing to take the time to add it to their posts.

[iambickilometer.livejournal.com]

Specifically I was speaking to its use as a noun, but it hasn't been a problem and it was mostly used as an example. As long as it doesn't become a problem (or as long as no one complains about it or requests warnings) I'm not going to be specifically looking out for it.

However, the point of warnings is that you might not have a problem with the content, but someone else might, and that someone else is who the warning is for. I'm not asking you to change your content -- just warn for it.

[iambickilometer.livejournal.com]

As a noun? (Which is the context I meant it in) I mean, if everyone on the meme thinks it's a fine word to use without warning, then great, I'm cool with you using it, but I'm coming from a place of not knowing and I want to prioritise people's access to the meme over people's reluctance to use warnings.

However, I am open to discussion and suggestion. If I'm totally wrong on this, I'll change it.

[(Anonymous)]

Does crazy even get used as a noun? How? "You're a crazy"?

[iambickilometer.livejournal.com]

Yes, and just so. Or "those crazies who think that First Class was a bad movie." I've seen it fairly regularly, actually -- maybe it's just common slang where I'm from.

[(Anonymous)]

I've heard "crazies" but never ever in the singular. *shrug* If it's okay to use crazy as an adjective, you might want to clarify that, since most of the time, that is how people use it.

[iambickilometer.livejournal.com]

I've heard it said that "crazy" as an adjective is also hurtful but what I don't want is to make it into a battle of principles. Mostly it's the physical disability stuff I'm concerned about. If people want to use "crazy" as an adjective I'll let them unless someone requests warnings for it.

[(Anonymous)]

Respectfully, as someone who suffers from mental illness, I think you should perhaps be careful you're not lumping all disabled people in together. "Crazy" really isn't a word that's analogous to "cripple" or "gimp", even if some people don't like it, and it's really part of a different discussion than the one you're trying to have here. If you want to have that discussion, cool, but have it, don't just throw it in as an afterthought when you're talking about something else.

[iambickilometer.livejournal.com]

Okay. I'm sorry I didn't think that through. You're right, I shouldn't have thrown it in, it didn't help anything and it was insensitive of me to lump disabilities together. I am going to take it out, and then I am sorry but I am done for the day. I am absolutely out of energy.

[(Anonymous)]

Is "psychos" going to be similarly policed and deleted? "Maniacs"? "Hysterical"? "Nuts/nutcase"?

Why is it acceptable as an adjective but not a noun?

Why is "the disabled man/the man in the wheelchair" going to be policed and deleted when other epithets ("the tall man," "the German") will not? What if it's a story told from the point of view of someone who would notice that feature of Charles first and think of him that way after?

Are you guys going to be reading through every fill and policing every mention of Charles's disability or lack thereof? Why is the priority suddenly on making this place a safe space for people with disabilities instead of any other feature? Isn't deciding a kink meme should be a safe space in terms of subjective content an extremely slippery slope? Can't there just be a general warning that there might be erasing of disabilities (and divorces) for the sake of kink?

[iambickilometer.livejournal.com]

The reason I'm not specifying the adjective form of "crazy" as well is because I, as a mod, do not have the energy to check each comment for it and there is so much argument about it that I would rather leave it to individuals to make their own calls unless it becomes a problem in terms of people feeling threatened or getting hurt.

This kink meme is not a safe space. I am merely asking people to be courteous, which is apparently too much for some people to handle. There is absolutely no way I can be everywhere at once and read every comment, even with the whole mod team. Adding a warning takes seconds, it's not that hard, I don't understand why it's such an issue.

I don't want to delete comments. I would rather do pretty much anything than have to resort to that. But I also don't want people to feel they can't come here because they don't know what to expect, and if everyone just uses their judgement and leaves warnings where necessary, then there's no issue.

And as for What if it's a story told from the point of view of someone who would notice that feature of Charles first and think of him that way after?, I'm only asking you to warn for it. That's all.

[(Anonymous)]

How are you supposed to warn for it when it would never occur to you that such a thing needed to be warned for?

Are you telling me I should warn in my fics for "ableism" at all times just in case, even if they're not ableist at all IMO, just so people won't complain? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of labeling them at all?

I don't understand how I should label or warn for something that seems so thematically nebulous. Like, I still don't understand what's considered ableist by your standards, beyond the obvious of calling Charles a "cripple" or what have you. I also don't see how expressing sadness he got SHOT IN THE SPINE is ableist. Are fics where Erik cries over his hospital bed because he's paralyzed ableist? Anything that expresses a negative emotion toward that event?

I'm just very confused, and frustrated that you seem to be acting like this is an obvious and simple task for us writers, when clearly, judging from the above complaints, it is neither.

[iambickilometer.livejournal.com]

Consider that there are people who do. The fact that it doesn't hurt you is great, but it does hurt other people. I'm not saying you can't use that word (especially in reclamation, I have absolutely no right), just asking you to warn for it.